[XIV] Heavensward Discussion

Come back to me when 1) you have actual knowledge about the video game industry and indies and 2) If you had half a brain and had reached any kind of wisdom, you'd have understood that this black and white vision is yours.

You're so high on your horse than you completely forgot to check in at humility hotel.

Indies seem to be more "outside the norm" for the simple reason that people like you will never pay attention to the games developpes/published by big companies unless they have their article on IGN or any other waste of data like Destructoid and many others I forget, but just as toilet paper tier.

Talk about growing up, start filing your brain with more information about what you talk about instead of being an ignorant literally who.

Dude is talking about SE, the company that has released 4 or 5 (actually more like 8, if not more, I Stopped counting in 2014) failures in the past 4 years. All of them were "risks", but yeah, let's focus on FFXIV being the only counter example you have. 10/10 argumentation grandpa, I hope to be as good as you when it comes to looking like an older version of the same idiot.

Let's knock it off with the personal insults. Stick to the topic.

I'm not judging either game as good or bad here. I'm just saying that they follow the same standard formula. Are there differences? Sure, but they aren't exactly stark. Sorry if I made it seem like I was bashing the game. Yeah I did basically call it unoriginal, and I am sorry if that was offensive, but do you honestly think XIV is a groundbreaking title?

I don't get why 'WoW-clone' is an insult, anyway. It's the most commercially successful MMO of all time for a reason. And FFXIV is, in my experience anyway, the best possible version of that model. It has flaws like all games do, but Yoshi-P flat out said, in the development/alpha/beta phases, that they were looking to construct a more 'traditional' MMO experience. They don't think it's an insult, why should we?

Because many players here have developed a pretty stagnant hatred for WoW over the years, I myself really dislike WoW. I never understood why it was so popular, I tried it like 3-4x and i just couldn't get into it at all, even at the request of many RL friends lol.

I just thought everything about it was so mediocre, that i couldn't fathom why people were flocking to it.

at the time i had just came from playing Ragnarok Online, and discovered FFXI, so to me, both of those MMO's largely outclassed everything WoW vanilla had to offer. Also the biggest drawback honestly was the graphics, I remember looking at WoW 1.0 and just cringing lol. Even the overhauled graphics in WoW current aren't that great.


The Truth is, that FF14 IS a WoW clone, but not an EXACT clone. They copied many of the aspects of WoW that made it popular and "fun" but amped everything up several dozen notches, Graphics,Environments, Gameplay, Music, and Storyline. Everything about 14 is done so much better than WoW has ever done it. (other than pvp ofc)

I mean, this storyline is *** fantastic....Other than FF11, I've never found many MMO's very engaging with the player as much as 14 has done. I almost never skip cutscenes (especially Voice over ones :Q) unlike many MMO's I've played in the past, because I never got drawn into a good story like i have with 14.

In my opinion, 14 is worth buying just for the storyline. Even if you don't touch a lick of endgame and unsubscribe once you beat the main story + expansion story. It's worth the price. and that's something most/many MMO's don't bring to the table.

So much this.

Some people use it as an attack cudgel to beat something they don't like.
Others, more reasonable folk IMO, use it as a gauge to check if they would actually enjoy the time investment.

And it's not like that latter category isn't something most EVERYONE does.
For instance, I don't like shooters. Period. I don't enjoy any of their mechanics so if a new one comes out, I'm not going to waste my life with it... because it's just another shooter to me.

I think the MMO thing is more touchy because of the emotional investment people put into them, and the fact that humans want to be super special snowflakes... and a part of being super special snowflakes, at least here in America, is being the best.
So when someone, rightly so in this case, points out that one product is derivative of another, people get all offended that their beloved time waster is not the greatest, bestest, superest, specialest snowflake of all the games. (Because that's what their emotional investment in it demands of them. You can see similar things throughout gaming as well as all of history.)

Question for those insane souls who have hit 60 already.

I'm going through the main storyline, and hitting a constant point now where it seems I'm clearing out all the quests in an area to level up to keep doing the main storyline due to level requirements, and this has me wondering, just how painful is it to level up a new job from 50-60?

Do you mean with no main scenario and quests? Probably not very if you do all your roulettes each day and clan hunts

Not super bad since for any job under the level of your highest you get an exp bonus.

To be clear, I don't object to XIV being a WoW clone, I object to the way the game consciously stagnates. Each of WoW's expansions change the game in meaningful (often controversial!) ways. It keeps things fresh for people who've been playing for a decade. ARR, OTOH, tried very hard to remain Wrath of the Lich King and Heavensward is the same.

Three new dungeons every patch structured the exact same way as the last three in the last patch, maybe a new token to grind every other patch, and if you're lucky you might get a random minigame that's carefully structured to not be rewarding enough to make you feel like you have to stop doing WotLK stuff. People praise the speed with which new content is released compared to WoW, but it's kind of easy to do that (money permitting) when you never bother to sit down and think up anything new (see: Dynasty Warriors + spinoffs).

So, short version is it's not even a WoW clone; it's a Wrath of the Lich King clone. Saying it's a (very good) WoW clone ignores what has kept WoW alive, because even though subs are declining nobody would be playing at all after 7 years of WotLK.

Really? Most of the jobs at 60 have new rotations to relearn and certain jobs play completely differently now compared to 1.0 and 2.0.

SMN is now the king of AoE and burst damage 200 potency AoE hitting everything going for full potency, 400 AoE again hitting of full potency, bane now infects every target in range though after 3 mobs dots do half damage. Ruin III spam every time trance is up.

BRD gets a damage buff song which turns all weapons skills into casted which means they cant run nor can you have off GCD stuff in the same macro since everything is casted. Massive change in how the job is played.

Those are the only two I've really stopped a looked at atm since smn is my main and BRD was my raid off job. MCH is probably going to now be my raiding job and the combos differ a lot from those of 2.0. It works off a proc system you proc the first hit to move onto the second unless you have ammo and that makes it 100% proc rate.

Because of flying each zone is now 5 times larger than those in 2.0 and it's not copy pasted through out the zone each part is individual.

I can't really go into the bosses much due to spoilers but one boss particularly can change its form and can use a wide range of abilities so you have to focus on what is happening.

You say WoW changes a lot every expansion but it's still pretty much quest based to level up nothing has really changed about that it's still the same old same old.

In all seriousness if you don't like heavensward or ARR then that's fine **** off and stop moaning about an expansion you haven't even played.

If you want the devs to completely rebalance your class and destroy your rotation, WoW will do that for you several times in the course of an expansion, for free!



This is only true in the sense that there are quests that you complete for XP, which gains you levels; there's some pretty novel and memorable quests in every expansion (not every quest, obviously; probably one out of every ten, I'd say), way more than XIV. Even then, you're ignoring everything that happens at the level cap, which is all anyone cares about after the first week.


You know what? You're right. Enjoy your pandering ***game, everybody! Truly the resurgence of the Final Fantasy brand!

For free? so WoW has gone F2P has it? well that's dieing off then.

There are a lot of memorable quests in heavensward and the MSQ are absolutely amazing especially when a certain thing teams up with you. The after credits cutscene is very WTF shocking plot twist.

For that last part good riddance you want this that and the other and SE won't do what you like from WoW and thus ***** about everything. You talk about pandering you are doing exactly the same you want them to pander to your "needs" but moan they are pandering to others instead. Well you are but one drop in the ocean and the vast majority like what has happened in heavensward and a lot of players the OF have been asking this that and the other and some of the better things are being added.

so bitter.
lol

No, just that rebalancing classes to the point of being unrecognizable is a time-honored way to trick rubes into thinking your game has more content than it does.

Games Workshop's been doing it for like 30 years.


"Bitter" isn't the right word, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed that the FF brand, after a decade of taking risks, batting about .500 on them, and suffering greatly for doing so is finally getting recognition and acclaim from doing the most boring and predictable ***possible.

I see so much side tracked comments in this thread

I can't wait to sit and play this weekend. Had access early but haven't got to really sit to play it.

Yes they are adjustments not content, i dont know why people would think otherwise, but you brought up changing core systems In WoW so I brought up a core system change that SE has done since that was one of the things you said SE doesn't do. Changing a jobs core play stay is a massive adjustment and shouldn't really be played down like what you are doing especially seeing how little amount of time the 2.0 jobs have been around.

Though your whole argument is based on WoW does this so XIV should do this too. So they change the jobs battle system every now and again it doesn't mean every MMO should follow suit just so they follow the "status quo" of one game. Let's be honest most MMOS these days aren't original and WoW certainly isn't seeing as how the last one has had you travel back in time to stop some plan to where the bad guy uses their knowledge and tech to start changing the future in the past.

I won't say rebalancing classes isn't changing core systems, but there is a difference between new content and shuffling the deck so that the player has to press buttons in a slightly different order to do the same stuff.

You are still grinding tomestones in roulettes with the same structure and same goals. You are still crafting the same sorts of stuff to use in the same ways. You are still working through the same quest structure. You still lack any other approach to advance your character at level cap.

WoW's advancement is far from perfect but it's never been "get valor points or give up".


When did I say anything about the writing?

just to throw in a point about NOT changing the core with every update... I wish ffxi didnt have item levels. and actually I wished they never touched the level cap of 75, both these changes were accompanied by some stuff that did change the game experience in a fundamental way.
not sure about XIV though, as much as I think it doesnt survive radical changes, I would like to see some as I am not a fan of the ARR job and battle system.
and Im one of the people Ghaleon mentioned that would buy the game just for the storyline without getting into endgame. The story is awesome, I dont like the endgame at all.

Haha thanks, I can't really say I agree with your thoughts on ALL the new jobs. MCN didn't really sit well to me and from what I gather from forums/friends is that you have to work for their DPS and even then its really really low. I played WAR as my first 50 and couldn't like PLD even if I tried. Playing DRK was really fun even at level 30 despite people repeatedly hopping up and saying "Its a 2H PLD, Its a 2H PLD". HOWEVER the new healing class feels very... "fresh" to me. I still need more time for research but I always felt that healing with a managing mechanic is something that would make me enjoy a healing class more. Until I started playing it and using the card system I didn't realize this was what I always wanted.

The idea of switching and swapping effects down to even how the heals worked make it really fun to play and I'm really not sure why. :P

100% in agreement here, it's just said watching all the morons in my server l/s touting about how they "rushed to 60" and skipped all the cutscenes and have full bismark extreme gear. If there is a MMO that you don't want to content buffalo in this market its gonna me FFXIV. I can say this game does story and first playthrough VERY well. Overall look/sound/feel are very well done also, if they could only do something about making the world seem less hollow and stop shoving 100% instanced content down our throats It would be nice too.

So how about that DRK Lv30 quest. Pretty damn cool.

I thought the same thing about ilvl when SoA came out, but looking back and seeing how long we have been "Stuck" (I emphasize this because after some time I went from feeling it was a bad thing to this makes sense) at 119 and the game very much so feels like ToAU with level 99 cap. A variety of things to do, old content is not overshadowed by new content (I.E. new skirmish gear does NOT give DT so you still need original sets for DT augs, some classes can still use Qaaxo due to native multi-atck + specific build paths)I am actually very happy with where FFXI is at atm and I'm just taking a short break to mix things up with FFXIV. And more to your coming for the storyline is more or less what I'm doing with FFXIV and its worth the $40 to do so. I am in full agreement with the second part, I highly doubt an major changes with endgame so I will more than likely peace out after I'm done with the MSQ.

A good bit of that still forces you to go through Duty Finder for story dungeons or bosses though right? 'cause it's fun when solo, but I absolutely hate being stuck doing content through that. Pretty much ruins the game for me.

Seems like I'm not the only one that's watching from the sidelines scratching his head. I agree with all of your points Scae, but I feel where our thought paths diverge is I don't want to compare FFXIV to WoW. This is mainly because FFXIV can do so much better than WoW,even now from a graphical and combat/crafting/fluff/housing/racing/e.t.c. system standpoint its doing circles around WoW. The bitterness from be dates back to 1.1.9 of 1.0 release. The launch of FFXIV was an abomination but not many of the stalwart blind believers of savior Yoshi P talk about 2.0 launch do they? After 1.1.9 came out (They called it the "miracle patch" and my god was that an understatement) I started to feel 1.0 was something different. From animations to creating your classes,open world dungeons, the new materia system, open world events like hamlet and most importantly doing exp parties in the sprawling massive and seamless open world. I felt like I could get behind another FF title after staying so tightly strapped to FFXI's knees for so man god damn years. There were still problems like copy pasted zones, I felt more animations for classes was needed, more open world dungeons, more open world events e.t.c.

Then ARR came and I felt like everything I avoided and hated in MMOS took over the very core of the game and it could be said as two things: "Duty Finder" and "Fates". While I can still come for the storyline, one thing I always enjoyed about 1.0 was while the story was every 5 levels, it was down to the point and not laden with shonen filler bile. Many new systems,reformations,new animations,tighter combat systems e.t.c. did grace the game but at major costs. The MAJOR downgrade to the engine, weaker overall animation quality with more sparkles to hide the fact, and the fact they didn't drop the abomination that was the armoury system (something that I did hate even since 1.0 that was here to stay). Having this "much smaller" but very beautifully made open world that you experience once thanks to MSQ to only wilt and stagnate as you realize the rest of the game revolves around instanced content. While 2.0-2.55 managed to give me some pretty decent story, let me meet some pretty cool friends to DF and raid with it didn't change the overall feel of what FFXIV became.

All the while the fanbase chants like rabid dogs to the savior Yoshi P when in reality what he did was make a total crapheap of a launch not as much of a crapheap as 1.0? The problem is MMO players are fickle, very few players came back to try later patches and even the 1.1.9 miracle patch because the launch was enough for them. This was all the while the game was F2P throughout this entire phase and sadly they started charging after 1.1.9 which I didn't quite agree with. Though I don't blame players for not giving it another chance, this isn't the same market FFXI launched in and that crap wasn't going to fly twice which is why I am glad that 1.0 crashed and burned. In reality if you are comparing 1.0 to 2.0 its hard to create something that bad twice, but here in lies the problem; if more people actually compared it to 1.1.9-2.0 I don't feel the traction would of been there or to that degree.

You will always be pushed into dungeons yes, but I find playing through them the first time is not bad at all. The appeal of the game can stand through the first playthrough which is why I always emphasize the "FIRST" playthrough. The problem the game creates is with the very lackluster AI of bosses and the heavily scripted and predictable combat "phases" when it comes to raiding and dungeons is what makes the game so unbearable when its the same 3 dungeons you do for 6 months. Come for the story, enjoy your first playthrough and I cannot say I can recommend anything good after that point.

Most stuff you grind like that gets repetitive. The issue with Duty Finder there is people aren't on the same page. So when they do the more interesting fight mechanics, you inevitably have someone that hasn't seen it yet, or experienced it in a particular role, etc. Meanwhile half the party wants to speed run it, and so on.

For those of us that have anxiety about pickup crap in general, it's just profoundly un-fun. Same as I like playing FPS games with friends well enough, but wouldn't touch online play with a ten foot cattle prod. Would have been nice if they worked in solo-challenge modes for that too, like they do for AF/etc.

I know why the Duty Finder is needed, but I absolutely hated it, mostly for this reason. I know it's not all that different from joining shout groups in XI, but I hated those too (so at least I'm consistent).