[Dev] Follow-Up On New BST Pets |
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[Dev] Follow-Up on New BST Pets
Brolli said: » perhaps you should re-read.. that's what i'm actually trying to quote, bst do take off hate from any dedicated pld on vw by just sending pet away and dding for 1-2 mins i seen this tons of times with good plds from my server Please define good. Because, um, that should never happen, ever.
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Odin.Eikechi said: » Brolli said: » perhaps you should re-read.. that's what i'm actually trying to quote, bst do take off hate from any dedicated pld on vw by just sending pet away and dding for 1-2 mins i seen this tons of times with good plds from my server Please define good. Because, um, that should never happen, ever. <-hasn't unlocked pld (Anye forgive me!!!)
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Siren.Kalilla said: » Odin.Eikechi said: » Brolli said: » perhaps you should re-read.. that's what i'm actually trying to quote, bst do take off hate from any dedicated pld on vw by just sending pet away and dding for 1-2 mins i seen this tons of times with good plds from my server Please define good. Because, um, that should never happen, ever. <-hasn't unlocked pld (Anye forgive me!!!) Odin.Eikechi said: » Brolli said: » perhaps you should re-read.. that's what i'm actually trying to quote, bst do take off hate from any dedicated pld on vw by just sending pet away and dding for 1-2 mins i seen this tons of times with good plds from my server Please define good. Because, um, that should never happen, ever. Ragnarok.Anye said: » Siren.Kalilla said: » Odin.Eikechi said: » Brolli said: » perhaps you should re-read.. that's what i'm actually trying to quote, bst do take off hate from any dedicated pld on vw by just sending pet away and dding for 1-2 mins i seen this tons of times with good plds from my server Please define good. Because, um, that should never happen, ever. <-hasn't unlocked pld (Anye forgive me!!!) I know there is an emity cap, but a pld should always be doing SOMETHING to a mob to keep it capped, no? its not like a bst is gonna be rippin major dmg
Just noticed Kalila is purple, totally gonna expect dev info when I see purple topics now o_O
VE decays by 60 units/second. If you're capped CE and do an action that will cap VE in the space between the PLD's attacks, the mob will turn to face you. Depending on the relationship between your rate of attack, the PLD's rate of attack, and the mob's rate of attack, this may lead to you taking some, most, or all of the hits over a given period of time.
EDIT: Pets use a different pDIF equation with reduced level correction. Their attack is lower than a buffed DD, but they're also not losing as much damage as enemy level increases. Base damage may also be high. Cerberus.Tidis said: » Just noticed Kalila is purple, totally gonna expect dev info when I see purple topics now o_O Fenrir.Nightfyre said: » VE decays by 60 units/second. If you're capped CE and do an action that will cap VE in the space between the PLD's attacks, the mob will turn to face you. Depending on the relationship between your rate of attack, the PLD's rate of attack, and the mob's rate of attack, this may lead to you taking some, most, or all of the hits over a given period of time. Siren.Kalilla said: » Fenrir.Nightfyre said: » VE decays by 60 units/second. If you're capped CE and do an action that will cap VE in the space between the PLD's attacks, the mob will turn to face you. Depending on the relationship between your rate of attack, the PLD's rate of attack, and the mob's rate of attack, this may lead to you taking some, most, or all of the hits over a given period of time. Strange. I never see any pet job take hate off our paladins when we're doing VW. As a matter of fact they rarely lose hate period, and that is pretty much only when a Blm goes nuts w/o dousing. In the occurrences where it is a DD that took hate it is always a Heavy DD 9 times out of 10 with a relic or empy WS. Our cor does it on a semi regular basis also.
Aside from that however they have very few problems keeping the NM's attention, and never are any pet jobs the culprit. Granted I don't do shout groups. What I'm speaking of is just my linkshell. Maybe I'm spoiled idk, but that's my experiences. If you want some more details about what nightfyre is saying, look no further than the enmity expert:
http://kanican.livejournal.com/tag/enmity%20testing%21 This table provides a comparison of the hate generated by various actions. http://kanican.livejournal.com/tag/enmity%20table%21 Please note that it's not really updated anymore and be sure not to confuse the FF14 info that is on the site. Bahamut.Fistandantilus said: » Strange. I never see any pet job take hate off our paladins when we're doing VW. And secondly, if your dd's, pet or not, are meleeing the mob, for a decent amount of time they will eventually get hate. Taking heavy damage from aoes or dealing very very low damage that can't keep up with hate decay are the only exceptions. It doesn't matter how awesome your plds are, it's just too easy to reach the hate cap now and the last person to cap, will have the mobs focus. You can see this effect multiplied in abyssea where insane damage is easy to do and hate capping is on a seconds scale and not minutes. Bahamut.Fistandantilus said: » Strange. I never see any pet job take hate off our paladins when we're doing VW. As a matter of fact they rarely lose hate period, and that is pretty much only when a Blm goes nuts w/o dousing. In the occurrences where it is a DD that took hate it is always a Heavy DD 9 times out of 10 with a relic or empy WS. Our cor does it on a semi regular basis also. Aside from that however they have very few problems keeping the NM's attention, and never are any pet jobs the culprit. Granted I don't do shout groups. What I'm speaking of is just my linkshell. Maybe I'm spoiled idk, but that's my experiences. But yeah, two tanks makes it less perceptible due to more attacks coming from the tanks. You're still cotanking at some point whether you notice it or not, you're just not ripping hate to the same degree since more people who are competing for the mob's attention are considered "tanks". as a person who spends 75% of my time on BST, the other 25% on MNK or rng, I can say that only thing the DEV's could truly do for BST is give that hippo TH so i dont have to use yuly on 90% of what im killing. BST doesnt really need anything imo, I would just love to have more. But yeah, dam u SE for making Yuly the only thing i can really use to solo alot of things and pray for drops. Not saying other pets wont do but Yuly is the staple../sigh. change would be nice.
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Some more follow up on this topic:
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oncura said: » dam u SE for making Yuly the only thing i can really use to solo alot of things and pray for drops. So you mean, BST is just like every other job that doesn't get native TH? You have to make a sacrifice (Using Yuly, subbing THF, bringing THF) to your survivability, solo-freedom, or killspeed in order to increase your chance at getting drops? Travesty.
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I do have a question though.
Why do people want BST to do everything in the game when most jobs can't do that either? Quote: So you limited us to only Jug Pets but not willing to give us a faster call timer. So basically you're telling the BST community to go and play a different job. If the Jug is all we can use in all 'RECENT CONTENTS', then you need to be sensitive to the fact that our call beast timer is limiting us to the point where we basically cannot use BST as a job in these contents. Quote: This is just laughable - they could make BST shines and better, but they refuse due some "content balancing" issue. Reducing the call timer to 3 mnts won't break the game, summoner can call pet every one minutes, and poor puppetmaster and dragoon have a much longer timer and have to just deal with it. Yes we want beastmaster to be able to do everything, it is time for them to shine for once. Quote: Hi Rukkirii, first of all, I appreciate the answers you're giving us, but Dreamin has it correct - you can't have it both ways - where you say "oh if you want that ability use this pet!" but then make the call beast timer so limited that we can't switch pets in a reasonable fashion. No other job is limited to 2 or 3 abilities at a time (and at any time at least 2 of them suck completely) Have you guys actually used these ready abilities? Most of them suck. Then you take all the good monster skills off jugs, and make most of the reasonably decent ready abilities cost 3 charges. It is infuriating. I hate to break it to you, but a move which costs TP, and is on a timer needs to do more than 10 extra damage to not suck. Most ready abilities do less damage than a critical hit. I don't think anyone really uses most of the ones that don't have debuffs. I sure as heck don't. And in content like WoE - it costs SO MUCH MONEY to be a bst. Just ridiculous amounts - the biggest reason being that pet food is disgustingly expensive, and if you don't use it every time the timer is up, your pet dies and you can do NOTHING for 1-2 minutes. If you want BST to get invited to groups you can't have them standing around doing nothing for 1-2 minutes because their pet died. You don't limit summoner to 1 pet every 5 minutes - and with all the -perp gear (nevermind in abyssea) MP is not very limiting - and PUP can get their pet every minute - so why the long cool down on call beast? It isn't reasonable - especially with things like those birds in WOE flux 9 that do a max HP down effect and kill your pet in like two hits. It really sucks to spend 30K per run and get nothing but logs and ingots as a reward 95% of the time. I don't see how it is balanced to make a BST pay 5K+ to buy the pet that can paralyze, make them get at least 100 tp to do it, and then restrict them from using any other pet skill for minutes at a time. If RDM doesn't get invited for Paralyze that is not on a ridiculous recast timer and doesn't require feeding the boss TP, why the heck would anyone invite a BST to do that?
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I Think it would be reasonable that they change call beast kinda like they did call wyvern.
where if ur pet has 100% hp you can dismiss it and the call beast timer will be ready to use. and maybe even make it to where if you do that you get the jug back that you used. or something along those lines. if only in certain areas.
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So much fail in all this bst whining...
Pups getting their pet every 1 minute is at a SEVERE cost to their output. If you don't see that then you've no idea how a puppet works. Smn's get their pets sooner than bst, because EVERY bp saps a crap ton of their mp and also are on separate timers (a quoted argument was that it takes tp and charges, and a timer, which is honestly just as bad as a smn who doesn't have an unlimited mp pool, being sapped of their mp). A bst has no weakness to their pets, no detriment as soon as they are cast. Can just sic um on a mob and be done with it, and there is NO CAST TIME for jug pets, unlike smns, which if you're soloing on smn, can be interrupted, and WILL get you killed a few times during your career as a smn. And what other pet can intimidate mobs? Please tell me that. Smn's can't, puppets can't. And they benefit from monster correlation chart, with increased dmg on certain mob families. Please bsts...keep bitching about your oh so flawed pet system... <3 an Odin Pup lol
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The only reason Call Beast needs to be looked at is because of VW procs. Otherwise, BST is fine.
Personally, I don't even think Jug Pet JAs should be weaknesses.
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Siren.Kalilla said: » I do have a question though. Why do people want BST to do everything in the game when most jobs can't do that either? Because BST has always been a crap-tier DD relegated to solo where it'd frequently get stomped by a RDM or BLM and in more recent times BLU, RDM, BLM, DNC, SMN, NIN or PUP? The excuse the job is fine cause it can solo EP in Dynamis is laughable. What is BST? A DD? It's not a particularly good one then. A soloist? In a game that has undercut parties, this is no longer unique. Tank? Anything a BSTs pet can tank is likely so weak (level wise) that any DD with a healer could do it. So... what is BST I ask? Let's face it, the job has always come up short. On the party front it brings literally nothing to the table even in the new-age era of jugpets and too many jobs can match the class in terms of solo ability. Sure, you get pocket TH with Yuly and Hippogryph but should one class be singled out as "solo onry" in a party-centric MMO? Seems to me that's SEs excuse and another disturbing reminder that they don't play this game. Throw a familiar at a Voidwatch mob and count the seconds before it is completely wrecked by any imaginable AOE. Reward timer? You won't be needing it when your unbuffed pet takes 2k dmg AOE while dealing out a couple hundred points of damage. Does this sound like a class worth bringing to the event? SMN has disposable pets so damage means squat, PUP has gotten melee improvements that put less emphasis on the automaton and DRG doesn't really even need the pet to function as it's just a DD job with a sidekick. BST? The pet can deal damage but takes so much in return that you'll most likely be waiting on Call Beast so until then you can enjoy being a gimp WAR.
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It shouldn't be as good as any DD, Mage, Tank, or anything.
Being by yourself isn't as good as teaming up with 2 bst. I see so many duo BST duo battles where it wouldn't be likely with any other normal jobs because they have disposable bodies (pets). I understand that BST wants to get involved with content for today and get involved in events, but how can you power up BST so it can be an accepted part of a group, while not making it overpowered outside of the situation solo/duo. I don't see how unless you make pets stronger particularly in VW when you get the buff. Maybe make it so your timers go down while that buff is active... I don't see them solo'ing/duo'ing VW's as a problem, that isn't want those NM's are about anyways. Also there are many job combinations that can already duo those VWNM. Do I agree with SE for removing monster JA's because "they are too powerful"? No, I think you can tweak any JA to make it balanced, they just didn't want to spend the time to do it. Like I said, for VW specifically they could make it so bst could be used properly, but the power it would take to make them used properly is not acceptable outside of that situation. It isn't very easy to solve when BST is such a unique job and to balance BST is completely different from balancing any other job. I think a lot of things need changed to make BST better, like you should be able to zone with pets. I just think some of the things BST are asking for to be able to be used in VW will make it too powerful outside of VW. Kalila, that's because they're asking questions on the official forums. The same forums that wanted to give RDM Hastega. Any BST that really understands their job, hell any person that really understands their job, isn't going to ask for trivial or game-breaking stuff. BST has been incredibly powered up, I don't care if it doesn't fit into VW, that's not its purpose.
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i wonder if it would be possible to go around with those Soul Capturers <cameras> take picture of a mob, then convert it into a custom jug pet so you can use it later~ O.o;;;
Fenrir.Unaisis said: » i wonder if it would be possible to go around with those Soul Capturers <cameras> take picture of a mob, then convert it into a custom jug pet so you can use it later~ O.o;;; >Take out of storage >Place directly in toilet Siren.Kalilla said: » It shouldn't be as good as any DD, Mage, Tank, or anything. Being by yourself isn't as good as teaming up with 2 bst. I see so many duo BST duo battles where it wouldn't be likely with any other normal jobs because they have disposable bodies (pets). I understand that BST wants to get involved with content for today and get involved in events, but how can you power up BST so it can be an accepted part of a group, while not making it overpowered outside of the situation solo/duo. I don't see how unless you make pets stronger particularly in VW when you get the buff. Maybe make it so your timers go down while that buff is active... I don't see them solo'ing/duo'ing VW's as a problem, that isn't want those NM's are about anyways. Also there are many job combinations that can already duo those VWNM. Do I agree with SE for removing monster JA's because "they are too powerful"? No, I think you can tweak any JA to make it balanced, they just didn't want to spend the time to do it. Like I said, for VW specifically they could make it so bst could be used properly, but the power it would take to make them used properly is not acceptable outside of that situation. It isn't very easy to solve when BST is such a unique job and to balance BST is completely different from balancing any other job. I think a lot of things need changed to make BST better, like you should be able to zone with pets. I just think some of the things BST are asking for to be able to be used in VW will make it too powerful outside of VW. BST duos for what exactly? Anything new in terms of content? We can talk about how great BST is at mopping up mobs designed for 75 and I'll agree but in terms of being relevant against built for 95 mobs, BST runs into serious trouble. I'd like to know what SE thinks regarding what a Beastmaster should be doing at Voidwatch. Also, I think people severely overestimate what BST can do relative to other jobs. Sure, the Vrtra solo is quite impressive but unless SE designs content that BSTs can group and do (like Nyzul 2.0), the job will continue to be stuck being a sweeper of lowbie junk rather than having any relevant place at endgame. Procs immediately destroy the notion of pet-burning something and the method is notoriously slow relative to using other combinations so what would the incentive be to use a group of BSTs? For some comparison: BLU has a niche very similar to BST with regards to prowess at destroying low-level monsters yet the job still maintains a respectable presence in endgame (an area where BLU ranks in the middle) via the tools at its disposal. Why is it impossible for BST to have a similar role? This is what I want to know. Did a quick breakdown of the current options for ready Moves. Don't get me wrong, BST currently has it better than it has in a very long time. Just posting for those who don't play to help clarify some Ready/Pet questions.
Ready charges regain @ 1 per 45” (40” if you can sacrifice your offhand slot) So that means 1 Charge moves = 45” 2 Charge moves = 1.5min 3 Charge moves = 2.25 min (Also requiring TP, but that's not too much of an issue now a days). I'll use strikeout to eliminate any moves/pets which are impractical. As already stated, there are a number of things that just should never happen with regards to BST jugpets. Instant-despawn when starting events (Be in VW, or any triggered-same-zone battle) is beyond wrong. I think some of the perceived “whinning” from BSTs is coming from the hope that the job doesn't turn into the RNG of old. To Kalilla's point, BST isn't going to be #1 in ANY primary category. As a hybrid job (and an OLD Hybrid at that!) there is always going to be some content that the job is completely unable to participate/unneeded for. But also, there are a number of very specific areas that we do excel in. Fighting charming AOE mobs. Holding Adds/pets (Given enough space) But all in all, isn't it too early to worry about what any job can or can't do? From my understanding VW, while more chapters are coming out, is NOT the actual 99 endgame. I don't want to cross some line where it's mistaken that I know what I'm talking about, because I'm not a BST.
Just had general questions about why people want it changed and also why it doesn't need changed. I only pointed out things that I know BST have solo/duo'ed these things because I think the potential of BST is there regardless of what level the content was. That also means I have no knowledge or understanding of how BST is in content atm, and honestly at all. I just think people make the job sound so broken and useless when I didn't think it was that bad. Sure I understand the VW issues, but I think that there is going to be new content that will be relevant to BST, we just aren't there yet.
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