Did Ff16 Flop?

I absolutely agree with the logic you shared in general in your post, but wanted to add something on this point specifically.
At launch, FFXIII (which sold way less than that) was considered a "failure" compared to how much it costed and how much SE was aiming for.
The additional projects (the 2 sequels) were greenlighted not because FFXIII was a huge success, but rather because it didn't make enough money so they tried to re-use FFXIII assets as much as possible to make low effort games.
Basically they tried to "invest" a little amount of money trying to make the "FFXIII whole project" generate more money than FFXIII standalone game did on itself.
If this makes any sense to you? This is basically what happened.

The whole point of the thread was to ask if it was a flop, and it was. Really case closed. While overall sales don't necessarily mean a game is good or bad, this game was truly awful. I can honestly say its the worst FF game I have ever played. The worst for me is the only reason this game gets defended is because of Yoshi PP and how fervent his worshipers are. He should not be allowed to touch another game, he thinks XIV is the pinnacle of gaming but it absolutely is not and copying so many aspects of it leads to an obvious fail because deep down the game is garbage and hollow also, but not as bad as this one at least.

Also, while putting on my tin foil hat, I feel like this game had a massive ad push behind its initial popularity that made it seem like it had a lot more sales than it did. There are still comments all across youtube and social media like Instagram of people claiming "this is my favorite FF game! wow what a game!" like these people cannot be real. I hate how companies use fake ad pushes thru comments, its the scummiest thing possible to try and sway gullible masses in my opinion.

At the macro level story doesn't really matter for video games, it's nice to have but rarely impacts overall popularity. What does impact popularity is gameplay, as in this question "Is The Game Fun To Play". This is where most bad studios screw up, they focus so much on story, graphics, some novel idea or mechanic that they don't spend nearly enough time, effort, energy in making the game enjoyable.

People play games as a form of interactive entertainment, if they wanted to just stand there watching CS's the whole time, they would of rather watched a movie, tv show or anime. Previously SE was really good at making enjoyable games that also had good stories, so much so that we ended up forgetting about how much fun the game was to play in the first place. Then FFXIII happened, which has a boring game play loop with shiny cutscenes. And every FF game afterwards was a train wreck as it used the same formula of shiny cutscenes + mediocre game play. FFXIV got saved by a new producer summoning a meteor on the servers and time warping everyone to the point after the game got fixed.

FFXVI flopped and flopped so hard people aren't going to just blindly trust Square Enix to have good gameplay anymore. Thing is, they are completely capable of making a RPG game with good gameplay, see Bravely Default or the Mana series, they just keep getting in their own way.

As the 16th FF it probably is a flop, but nowhere near as damaging as something like The Spirits Within was for the brand.

SE don't primarily make new FF games to make money, they are made to push up the stock price. Positive reaction from the fanbase, proof of staff competency, good review scores, growing the fanbase, company prestige and things like that are why they make them and it pushes up the stock price. This is why they often spend obscene amounts of money on them (ff7 remake is a good example of overspending), far more than it's possible to get back. These games can lose money, and still be a success.

16 was a flop, cause it failed at the primary reason it was made, it was not a masterclass and divided the fans. Also because Yoshida who many at the company thought was going to be a big deal and some kind of new brand developer made a fool of himself.

If the game did well this would have been a massive deal for him, and I imagine he is incredibly salty about it.

You only get one chance at the superbowl, and he blew it.

Oh hey, I see RA still excels at making ***up.

I mean...that's not entirely wrong. For the wrong reason though.

Sony bribed Square to put the biggest name they could get to move playstation 5s more than Square needed to make the game good.

They sacrificed the name for the bribe. They got kind of a free pass to try something new (garbage) it did not go well.

I'd love to know how much Sony paid, and how pissed they were

it seems some eastern devs are slowly fighting back against the disaster of the last few years, but Sony sure isn't. They probably forgot SE even exists while chasing the next live shooter when Marathon runs out of gas.

One hundred and fourty-four seconds. What a *** loser lmao

Yes The Spirits Within has absolutely terrible game play. The worst SE has ever made.



16 flopped because it wasn't fun to play. It looked pretty and had the usual sound track and epic scenery, as a piece of art it's good, but as an interactive medium it sucked.

Any game's, video or otherwise, first and more important job is to provide interactive entertainment. This is true for everything from Go Fish, Spades, Uno to board games and even to video games. Humans spend money to buy entertainment, that is the product that is being purchased when someone gives money for a video game. The measure of success is if lots of people chose to give money to someone in exchange for that entertainment.

He was a staunch defender, I know he loves Yoshi PP. But you have to admit when youre wrong, and you know this was bad.

Some would say that was not a very solid approach at all. Trying to be "Adult" and "GoT-like" felt pretentious and cringe. It's a signal that they didn't know what they were doing, or were just casting a wide net, which usually has the oppsite effect on sales when it comes to an established IP whose fans have expectations from. And the poor reception + sales showcase that.

Good graphics don't excuse shitty gameplay, I agree with that much. It's the plague of modern AAA gaming.

However, I think the bolded part is a bit of an overstatement that underestimates the impact of good narrative/story on a videogame. Good gameplay is a pre-requisite for popularity, but thinking of series like Metal Gear & Final Fantasy, I think narrative, story and presentation are what set them apart from other series within the same genre with (arguably) better gameplay, because the non-gameplay elements I just mentioned help create memorable moments. Those moments are what create attachment to the IP by the players and turn them into classics. Bonus points if they're cleverely woven into the gameplay.

Also, it's usually more a case of "what am I expecting from this product?". If you are going to play a "videogame" like 1000xResist, then you won't expect very polished or engaging "gameplay" because, in essence, it's closer to a visual novel.. which still count as a videogame genre. But perhaps that's why you prefaced your post with "at the macro level", so this might just feel like me nitpicking.

https://www.pcgamer.com/in-an-act-of-auteur-megalomania-yoshi-p-made-the-final-fantasy-16-core-team-buy-and-watch-game-of-thrones/

TBH Square Enix is kinda dead to me. Nothing they have announced or will announce have/will excites me. Final Fantasy name is no longer a seal of quality. I rather play the original FFVII than the remake. The only game of their I might still play is this one, and I think thats more of a stockholm syndrome than anything.

Dragon Quest XI was the last SE single player jrpg I consider worthy of the genre, and that was June 2017. People have mentioned Stranger of Paradise but I give all credit to Team Ninja on that one, not SE.

Suph's picture understates the obvious, they forgot how to make games and have been coasting off of remakes for a very long time.

Still, I stand by my statement. 3.5m sales is poor in comparison to any other main FF title, but it isn't forcing them to consider merger to avoid going out of business completely. I wish it was. Maybe then enough heads would roll to see a return to form.

I agree with everything you've said, except for the take on FF7 Remake. It is extremely clear that SE spared no expense in making FF7 Remake/Rebirth. In the PS1 era, they had no choice but to rely on random NPCs with 1-2 sentences of dialogue (text), to glue parts of the story together. In FF7 Rebirth, almost every NPC interaction contributes to the story, and with voice dialogue too.

I was very surprised to hear some folks criticize FF7 Rebirth for "having too much filler" (but OK, for FF7 Remake I get it, lots of filler). At the same time, if you look at the battle progression from Remake to Yuffie DLC to Rebirth, they building on a hybrid Action + ATB system that could never be developed in time for just 1 game. (Let's not forget the materia combos, which admittedly are a little watered down compared to the PS1 era).

I'm trying to say that there are pearls of technical advancements in FF7 Rebirth/Remake that make me hopeful for future games that Square Enix produces.

However, to your point, the general reception of SE's games on Western audiences (and younger audiences!) has been poor.

Maybe advertising FF7 on Butterfinger candy was a stupid idea? It tastes like glass. Part of me thinks that Square Enix isn't expending any effort to understand it's audience outside of Japan ..and if that is true, and they're resigned to fail in this regard, I don't see a future for Square Enix aside from Sony or Amazon or Netflix purchasing Square Enix for it's IP. :/

lol, I was in the thread. Swing and a miss. SE isn't going anywhere, despite years of declarations that it has no future. You guys have been crying since before covid, and yet they are still making games. When exactly is this Japanese company getting bought out by a foreign entity? I want a date, because these threads have been the same recycled trash for a decade now.

5 year chart has the S&P as up 70%, 5 year chart has SE down 10%.

80% delta between the broader market and SE.

if you think SE is thriving you are delusional

89% delta

It comes down to what is the purpose of a game? Why do people give money to buy games?

Monopoly has sold more then 275 million physical units since it's inception. People didn't buy it for it's story or shiny art, they bought it because it was fun.


That is why this statement is true. When we stop trying to defend our preferences and zoom way out a trend emerges. Games, of any medium, that are fun, will sell in high volumes regardless. A game that is not fun doesn't last long, this is why so many games crash and burn nowadays, the developers focus on every element except core fun.

Games that are pretty but not fun, rely almost entirely on false advertising hype for that initial wave of sales, then sales plummet once the word gets around. A company does that a few times and people stop trusting them to be fun.

Narrative / story is just one element, like graphics, that is there to accentuate the fun. If two games are both fun and one has strong narrative while the other doesn't, the former would become more popular. If the former had good story but bad fun, while the later had bad story but great fun, the later would become successful.

The only medium where narrative / story becomes dominate is books and sometimes TV / movies, though even then fun, otherwise known as entertainment still dominates.

played it once, have zero desire to want to play it again.

FF6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 though i can keep playing multiple times gladly.

Yeah, nobody buys Monopoly expecting a captivating story, if any story at all. But we're talking about videogames here rather than all types of games.


Yup
Remember though that my original reply was regarding story's importance in relation to "gameplay" (it compliments it), not "fun". While "fun" is mostly determined by gameplay, the setting and story do contribute to the fun/enjoyment factor, and thus popularity and IP attachment.

I feel like FFVII Remake fight is, sure fun, but very scripted. When I realized the summon come out only when I fight bosses (and maybe hard battles?) that's when i lost my motivation and uninstall the game, I remember it was somewhere in the train tunnel. Since remake wasn't for me, i haven't touched rebirth which i think was their other mistake with how they are approaching the remake.

Like in the original FFVII, if i want to summon Knights of Rounds to kill a random mob i could. I decides when I summon. In FFXI if i want to summon odin to zantetsuken a tunnel worm I could. I manage my own resources. In FF7RE its like, ohh you're fighting a hard battle, let me help you with a summon.

Same problem I have with FFXIII, leveling is limited to the zone you're in, once you reach a certain level that zone will start giving you almost 0 crysta or whatever. Also kinda railroaded you into picking how to grow your character as passed a certain point on a role the point required to grow just jump, so kinda forced you to grow the other roles.

And wow last reported number for FF16 was only 3.5M? Heads should rolls when some French studio managed this sales on a new IP with I'm almost sure 1/10th of FF16 budget.

How the hell did 15 do so well? I recall many not caring for it and its story being split between other mediums being more than an annoyance to the fan base.

15 came out on a better playstation, and xbox, and had a movie, and is actually an RPG, and Square still had a good reputation prior to 15s launch.

People got burned hard on day 1 release of FF15. People got burned hard on day 1 release of FF14 even - I was one of them.

Not like they have form for it.

Massive sales over and over, they wanted to try force high numbers.

Makes sense.

Since it was released in 2016, and has 10 million sales now, and 16 was released in 2023, if SE forces sales on it over the next 7 years and it has matching sales numbers in 2033, I wonder what its perception of success will be then.

Either way, both 15 and 16 were not exactly my cup of tea. Back in the day I would have just rented both.

Even on deep bargain bin sale there's no reason to buy 16

Unless you want Temu DMC